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Post by Detroit Pistons Sports Group on Mar 14, 2008 23:02:42 GMT -5
still ROFL good point on the FOR ONE YR and blah blah blah i change my mind..... I take Hawes and as soon as ATL posts ill probably change again... lol.
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Post by dajason on Mar 14, 2008 23:24:31 GMT -5
Blocked shots are not the only determining factor of good defense. Its actually a little overblown. If the league info wasnt already down, you could go back and actually look and see how the opposing centers faired against each center. I would suggest just from memory, not too many Centers had outstanding games against Ogilvy. But if you want to put into context of team play... on the same team you already have the greatest defensive presence in the game in Oden. a Very good defensive SF in Walker. Ogivly is no defensive slouch, which makes his very good defense and great offense better than Hawes great defense and just good offense.
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Post by Thaaa BUCKS! on Mar 14, 2008 23:27:18 GMT -5
The only way to really determine defensive skill is to look at how opposing centers fared, because blocked shots have no value in a game like this. In real life, a block is huge(at home, anyways) because it's a huge boost to the crowd. This holds true anywhere from NBA to High school. But in a game like this, blocked shots are the most overrated stat.
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Post by KingsOfKings on Mar 15, 2008 1:12:22 GMT -5
A > A- > B+
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Post by nets on Mar 15, 2008 11:28:03 GMT -5
Blocked shots are just one part of defense and may be a bit over blown but Hawes by ratings is a much better defender. As far as inside scoring they seem to be fairly similar but Ogilvy has the better outside game.
Statistically I think Ogilvy was probably the #2 scoring option most of the year while Hawes was probably 4 or 5 so its hard to compare their points per game.
To me it seems like Ogilvy is the better all around scorer but Hawes is the better all around defender and rebounder and could contribute inside as much as Ogilvy does.
So it comes down to what you like in your center, all around scoring or inside scoring and defense/rebounding.
I imagine Hawes to be a poor man's version of Dwight Howard and Ogilvy a poor man's David Robinson. I am not sure which is more valuable.
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Post by dajason on Mar 15, 2008 12:08:31 GMT -5
Thats just it... the downgrade in scoring from Ogilvy to Hawes is much greater than the downgrade in defense from Hawes to Ogilvy.
Its really just a taste thing, but give me the superior scoring, the great FT %, and the very good defense... at 3 mil per year and with A potential....
Over the Great Defense, the Good scoring, the poor FT % and the 15 mil per year with B pot.
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Post by nets on Mar 15, 2008 12:32:56 GMT -5
I don't think we can count salary here as this was supposed to be the best player not the most economical.
I am not sure that Hawes is as far behind in offense as you state. I think if he was the #2 scoring option in SAC then he would be scoring 20-22 a game and the gap would look a lot smaller.
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Post by KingsOfKings on Mar 15, 2008 16:40:27 GMT -5
exactly. Hawes can score 20 ppg...and the team wasn't lacking for scoring...why not add some D.
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Post by dajason on Mar 15, 2008 23:18:53 GMT -5
If Hawes has the ability to score 20 a game why wasnt he given that opportunity? Other than Melo, you didnt have anyone scoring 20 per. Gordon, Marion, Davis.... if Hawes has so much scoring ability, then why wasnt he being given a chance?
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Post by dajason on Mar 15, 2008 23:24:29 GMT -5
I don't think we can count salary here as this was supposed to be the best player not the most economical. I am not sure that Hawes is as far behind in offense as you state. I think if he was the #2 scoring option in SAC then he would be scoring 20-22 a game and the gap would look a lot smaller. Well I just went back and looked. Hawes WAS the #2 option for sims #4, #5, #6, #7, and #8..... <cough> So?
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Post by KingsOfKings on Mar 16, 2008 2:16:10 GMT -5
Well, it's more than debatable at this point. I do think I underestimated Ogilvy's B outside scoring ability. I do think you are underestimating Hawes' defense as well
I do think it's very plausible for Hawes to average 20 ppg, though. It's one of those things about having 5 players that can score...
that's also one of the things that leads to making it deep into the playoffs.
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Post by Thaaa BUCKS! on Mar 16, 2008 13:08:31 GMT -5
Thats just it... the downgrade in scoring from Ogilvy to Hawes is much greater than the downgrade in defense from Hawes to Ogilvy. Its really just a taste thing, but give me the superior scoring, the great FT %, and the very good defense... at 3 mil per year and with A potential....Over the Great Defense, the Good scoring, the poor FT % and the 15 mil per year with B pot. What does salary have to do with anything at this point? Nothing. He was a rookie last year, of course he's got a smaller contract. That's got nothing to do with this. This is solely performance. Plus, scouted potential means nothing.
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Post by NBL President on Mar 24, 2008 5:34:53 GMT -5
3, good discussion value as well.
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